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Post by nopopups on Nov 9, 2018 10:47:35 GMT -5
http://www.pwsaontario.com The PWSA has sent out an email re: proposed amendments for the upcoming PWSA AGM in Burlington, Ont. Most of the proposed amendments pertain to Housekeeping rules with a couple of revisions on affiliation dates, signing date, and one for the mite category re: stealing a base. At the time of my writing this, I could not find the proposed amendments on the PWSA website. Contact your Co Ordinator, the PWSA Secretary or your coach (there should be someone from each team that has received the email from the PWSA) for more information.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 12:44:54 GMT -5
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Post by ballfan on Nov 9, 2018 13:52:50 GMT -5
Kind of surprised that there was only 1 proposed amendment change that came from someone other than the PWSA members / board. As mentioned above it pertained to the Mite division. There were only a couple things I wanted to see changed, 1. Novice division going back to tier 1 and 2 for 2019 season. That was already decided prior to this AGM. 2nd thing I would like to see is the elimination of the double knockout at the tier 2 qualifiers. Think the majority of teams would pay the extra fees if they knew they were getting a min. 3 / 4 games with pool play. They changed the double knockout at Provincials to pool play a few years ago hopefully qualifiers is next to get the change. Nothing worse then a team losing their first game Friday night then early Saturday morning seeing players / coaches packing their bags and checking out of the hotel. What type of message is being sent to the team when they see a coach checking out early because if they lose next game they're done sometimes as early as 11am Saturday. Think the players have any confidence when they see their starting pitcher Saturday has her bags packed to go home. What's the message the parents are sending to this girl? Been at hotels over the past few years and seen this happen with different associations /teams. The conversations that can be heard in the lobby haven't been pleasant most times. Understand win and they avoid this. With the seeding that happens now the top caliber teams are scheduled against the lower seeds so this is going to occur more often than not. (lower seed facing elimination first thing Sat. morning) Think if parents, players and coaches are taking a weekend off to play / attend a tournament make it more than 2 games guaranteed. Just my two cents worth  |
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Post by bucketdad on Nov 9, 2018 16:57:36 GMT -5
Hey Ball Fan, I've never been a fan of the DKO formats....although there are applications where they do have their place and the qualifiers may be it. One of the big problems at the T2 level is that there really needs to be a T3. Although the numbers may not support it there really is a large calibre gap between the top T2 and the bottom, enough that I'm not really sure what playoff format you could have that would make it a good event for some of the lower level teams. The Grands are much better once they split to A and B pool.
One inequity I'd like to see rectified is why does Tier 2 get a Qualifier and a Grands for their Affiliation fee and then the Tier 1 pays the same affiliation and gets only a Grands...
One other thing I'd like to see after last year is that we use the National Qualifier as the means of seeding T1 provincials.
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Post by blueman on Nov 11, 2018 5:11:12 GMT -5
I'm going to out on a limb by saying I like the DKO format. Every game means something and the draw isn't as important.
Drawing the pools in a round robin can be a very controversial task. I've seen round robin tournaments where the one pool was stacked and 2 of the top 5 teams got eliminated (the "pool of death") and two weak teams go through in the other pool. Even with a poor DKO draw, you have to play the games. If you lose twice, you can't say you deserved gold or silver. And really, is a 3 game round robin that much better, I get 5 or 6 game round robins being more popular, but no one advertises a 3 GG tournament throughout the year.
From an umpires view, I can't stand doing the last round robin game and having the teams phone it in, because they are out, or they have clinched and resting their best players. In DKO, teams always play to win and play their best.
To accommodate the round robin, tournaments often start on Thursday or first thing Friday. And teams that lose 2 or 3 games can be mathematically eliminated by Saturday noon. So the comment about teams going home early isn't quite accurate. Now you have parents and players hanging around for extra games they don't want to play. Several tournaments this year had teams not show on Sunday because they were eliminated. There was talk of the PWSA fining them, but I don't know if they did.
Also, if the teams aren't going to make it to Sunday, why force the team to the hotel for another night. I'm sure the hotel would love the extra $1000-1500, but I'm sure the parents wouldn't mind saving their money.
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Post by ballfan on Nov 11, 2018 11:02:11 GMT -5
blueman,
You're correct NO one advertises a 3 GG tournament throughout the year, they also don't advertise a 2 game GG at any tournament around except for one of the biggest tournaments the girls will play at, the qualifiers. As you mention, to accommodate the round robin, tournaments start on Thurs. or first thing Friday. If the teams are playing Thurs. and Friday and being eliminated on Saturday they at least were able to get a couple days play in. Very rare that teams are playing 3 games Friday so they would get a couple days in playing ball.
At the AGM a few years back this was a concern for many teams (coaches, players and parents) the 2 GG at Provincials. The majority did not want to take a weekend off to only get the possibility of 2 games in. No matter what, never going to get all teams to like the pool their team is assigned to. With seeding and everything else still hear complaints each year, this pool was stronger, why all the top teams in this pool and not that etc. The thing that most aren't complaining about thou, with pool play, is number of games.
Don't think you would find too many, (if any)teams that would enter a tournament that only offered a 2 GG.
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Post by hawks2005 on Nov 11, 2018 18:26:42 GMT -5
One inequity I'd like to see rectified is why does Tier 2 get a Qualifier and a Grands for their Affiliation fee and then the Tier 1 pays the same affiliation and gets only a Grands...
Yes bucketdad that certainly is a great question. All Novice/Bantam Tier 1 and Tier 2 will pay the exact same affiliation cost. Now if both need qualifiers, then the affiliation fees pay for both qualifiers and provincials. Now if one doesn't need qualifiers, which typically happens in Tier 1, then they only have provincials, but the affiliation costs remain the same?  What happens to the "qualifier" money ear marked for Tier 1 or Tier 2 whomever doesn't need the qualifier tournament? By the cost of National Qualifiers last year in Bantam, the money that Tier 1 teams paid certainly did not go to pay for that! |
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Post by bucketdad on Nov 11, 2018 19:04:09 GMT -5
Generally speaking the association does a pretty decent job of listening to concerns and making changes. I find ball a great deal more flexible than girl's hockey as an example in this regard. Some may argue there is too much flipping around...and the stealing home flip flops we went through at squirt a few years ago might be a good example of too quickly making and reversing changes.
I would tend to agree a three game pool play like we saw last year at Bantam Tier 1 is far from optimal and little better than a DKO. I believe the year previous they had done a 7 game round robin. That may be stretching it a little to the other extreme but a 5 or 6 game round robin does help mitigate the "pool of death" concerns that are definitely a factor in a three game round robin.
The provincials at the Tier 1 level have definitely been deemphasised by the creation of the National Qualifer. I'm not sure I want to go back to the old way but it does have a different feel with no Nationals positions up for grabs. Some of that did go away by day two as the competitive juices were flowing but it definitely felt anti-climactic.....knocking out our old friends the Tigers in a walk off gave it a little zip though...I do recall you returning the favour to us in Winnipeg...
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Post by inthestands on Nov 12, 2018 11:11:59 GMT -5
One inequity I'd like to see rectified is why does Tier 2 get a Qualifier and a Grands for their Affiliation fee and then the Tier 1 pays the same affiliation and gets only a Grands...
Yes bucketdad that certainly is a great question. All Novice/Bantam Tier 1 and Tier 2 will pay the exact same affiliation cost. Now if both need qualifiers, then the affiliation fees pay for both qualifiers and provincials. Now if one doesn't need qualifiers, which typically happens in Tier 1, then they only have provincials, but the affiliation costs remain the same? What happens to the "qualifier" money ear marked for Tier 1 or Tier 2 whomever doesn't need the qualifier tournament? By the cost of National Qualifiers last year in Bantam, the money that Tier 1 teams paid certainly did not go to pay for that! The "baked in" fee for the provincial championship within the affiliation fee has always been a bit of a contentious point. It is, when you strip out the admin and insurance cost, one of, if not the most expensive tournaments of the season in terms of the entry fee. If you were offered a $750 tournament entry fee with a 3 game guarantee, would you take it?.....No of course not...but for many that is what provincials boils down to 3 or 4 very expensive games.
Given the explosion in the number of teams at all levels a revamp in the format and presentation of provincials is needed.
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What happens to the "qualifier" money ear marked for Tier 1 or Tier 2 whomever doesn't need the qualifier tournament? By the cost of National Qualifiers last year in Bantam, the money that Tier 1 teams paid certainly did not go to pay for that! 